Giles Again

[Bonzo]

Article.

I am again impressed by the Rev Giles Fraser.

[JJ]

And he's one of our members too. 

[light_worker]

And he's one of our members too. 

.... perhaps then, he could talk us through the "safety reasons" for closing the cathedral (presumably as a precursor to asking/telling the protesters to leave) - surely they haven't come under pressure from their "friends" in the financial institutions which are their neighbours (probably using the police as middlemen/"enforcers" again)!

or maybe it is just another cheap publicity stunt to keep themselves in the media - (and increase the numbers of "bums on pews"!).

Thought at the time it was a bit of a turn up for a cathedral to stand up for the poor and disposessed!

[Bonzo]

I think it was fairly obvious that Giles had been overridden by his boss the Rt Rev Graeme Knowles Dean of St Paul's Cathedral.

For an overview of the pecking order see here.

St Paul's Cathedral is one of the top ten tourist attractions, it has a shop a cafe and a donations box.  Probably, if you arrived with American dollars, you might find that they were willing to change your money into English Pounds for you, so that you could spend them at the cathedral.  It is the commercial aspect of the cathedral that is suffering, and 'safety' is simply a reason to hide behind.

In another time and place a rabbi overturned the tables of those conducting commerce in the temple and forcibly expelled them. He welcomed in those who were suffering and in need.

Oh to see the church standing in solidarity with those campaigning for a better deal for the poor! Sadly it was only for a few days that we saw any sign of this. The high priests have had their say, the money changers are back, will the rabbi be hung out to dry?

[light_worker]

.... perhaps then, he could talk us through the "safety reasons" for closing the cathedral

... thought not - is it me or is the silence deafening?

I think it was fairly obvious that Giles had been overridden by his boss the Rt Rev Graeme Knowles Dean of St Paul's Cathedral.

Thanks for that Bonzo - not a huge surprise that the "boss" comes from a place where contributing to society through taxes etc is frowned upon - I'll bet he fits in really well in "The City"!

I hear that a Canon (wot that? - I thought canon were devices for firing balls long distances!) has said the protesters should pack up and go home because "St Paul's is a greater cause than theirs" - yes we all remember the bit of the bible when Jesus said "f**k the poor - line your own pockets instead"!

[light_worker]

ah - should have looked first - just found this on the St Pauls Website:

Statement from Canon Giles Fraser

22 October 2011
The Revd Canon Dr Giles Fraser, Chancellor of St Paul’s Cathedral, issued the following statement today (Saturday 22 October 2011)
"I remain firmly supportive of the right of people peacefully to protest. But given the strong advice that we have received that the camp is making the cathedral and its occupants unsafe then this right has to be balanced against other rights and responsibilities too. The Christian gospel is profoundly committed to the needs of the poor and the dispossessed. Financial justice is a gospel imperative. Those who are claiming the decision to close the cathedral has been made for commercial reasons are talking complete nonsense."

Ok - but leaving aside the self contradiction - I'd still like to know from whom the "strong advice" came - the police (well known for their support of peoples right to protest) - the "COE" pension fund manager (sorry that must be nonsense - Giles says so!) - his boss (see above) - David Cameron - the Queen????

looking at the TV pictures there are no obvious obstructions of access to the cathedral (far less than during the Lord Mayors Parade for example) a "journalist" standing outside speculated that it was a fire risk as a tent might catch fire (a risk on a par with a tourist in Nylon clothing spontaneously combusting).

It is tragic that the church joins in with this "health and safety bashing" (using health and safety as an excuse to avoid things they don't want to do) as loved by business leaders and tabloid fiction writers everywhere. Health and safety should be celebrated by the church - the advent of H&S law means that children no longer have to go down mines or sustain horriffic injuries when trapped in looms, that people can go to work and stand a good chance of returning fit and healthy because their employers share a duty of protecting them from needless risk! H&S is now shorthand for "I can't be bothered"!

[seeka]

what a shame JC never thought to get Himself a healthn safety statment

[light_worker]

what a shame JC never thought to get Himself a healthn safety statment

He'd never have been allowed near the cross (without the appropriate PPE) if the CoE's H&S department had got anywhere near it!

[Bonzo]

Well fancy that!

Looks like St Paul's is set to re-open despite the tents - they got them to reshuffle them a bit and apparently they are no longer a grave danger to staff and visitors.

Also it seems that the canon chancellor, Giles Fraser, reportedly vowed to resign in the event of any use of force to remove protesters.

[seeka]

what a shame JC never thought to get Himself a healthn safety statment

He'd never have been allowed near the cross (without the appropriate PPE) if the CoE's H&S department had got anywhere near it!

ur right !

[light_worker]

Well fancy that!

Looks like St Paul's is set to re-open despite the tents - they got them to reshuffle them a bit and apparently they are no longer a grave danger to staff and visitors.

Also it seems that the canon chancellor, Giles Fraser, reportedly vowed to resign in the event of any use of force to remove protesters.

Gosh!!!

Hats off to Giles I suppose!

Still, it won't do much for the CoE pension fund though - it'll upset all their friends in the city!

[OR]

20,000 pieces of silver figure in this story somewhere.

How will the congregation of the COE react? Probably not at all.

Giles is a hero.

[light_worker]

Oh dear (see here).

Looks like The Right Arsehole, sorry, Reverend Graeme Knowles will be sending the bulldozers in soon - maybe someone needs to buy him a copy of the New Testament as he doesn't seem to be familiar with the message and work of Jesus Christ (you'd have thought that in his occupation it would be a pre-requisite - but obviously not!).

[hatless]

I think the Cathedral authorities - that's the Chapter, I think - look pretty bad this morning. They've not been able to give any credible reasons for closing or re-opening. The contrast with Giles F's principled action is stark. I don't know if the £20,000 a day is the big thing for them, but it's what the news keeps referring to. Not a clever episode. Giles F must have made his case to them, and they must have not listened.

[The Toad]

Just to offer a tentative defence of the CofE, and, in passing, of Graeme Knowles: I wonder how Jesus would have managed if, instead of being free to roam around and live off what people who approved of him supplied, he had been responsible for the upkeep of thousands of large buildings and had had to pay the wages of tens of thousands of disciples.  Perhaps it's not surprising that the various Churches lose sight of him in the day-to-day effort to keep the whole groaning, lumbering, overweight show on the road.  It would be interesting to see what happend if they took literally his words about making no provision for tomorrow and letting God take care of them as he takes care of the lilies of the field; if they, like Jesus, were prepared to live 'with no place to rest their heads'.  It might be scary too.  And possibly exhilarating.  But I don't suppose for a moment we shall ever find out.
It all tends to reinforce the feeling I get on the rare occasions when I venture into cathedrals, a feeling which calls to mind the words of the angel to the women who visited Jesus's tomb - "Why do you seek him here?  He is risen and gone..."  Or words to that effect.
Does humanity really want the wild, reckless, demanding Jesus, when it has the safe, predictable, solid Churches?  Do I want him?  I wonder.
(Cross-posted with Hatless.)

[Bonzo]

I have been reading that Giles has no plan B.

I'm not sure how such a resignation works within the C of E.  I take it that this doesn't mean he's resigned form the C of E entirely.  Or does it?  Does he still have an income if he resigns his post at St Paul's?

Anyone know?

[JJ]

No, no money as he's resigned from that particular job - but he can still practise as a priest as he has a licence to do that. But he would have to rely on free lance weddings and funerals. I wonder how much the BBC pays him for the occasional Thought for the Day.

[Bonzo]

Another of St Paul's clergy resigns

[Bonzo]

Meanwhile the St Paul's broken PR machine suppresses a report on bankers greed to save embarrassment on the protesters issue.

Fraser Dyer's blog

More background

Christians vow to defend the protesters with a non-violent ring of prayer

[light_worker]

Oh dear - St Pauls really is in trouble, isn't it, it's got:

Health & Safety people who know nothing about Health and Safety

Legal advisors who don't understand the Law

A Dean who doesn't seem to have ever read the New Testament

a dwindling pool of staff (or at least staff capable of independent thought)

and now Press Officers who can't issue Press Releases

what next I wonder??

Bell ringers that can't pull?

Vergers who don't like grass?

Organists that........ (actually I think I'll leave it there!)

[Nadine]

I found this comment helpful.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15497618

[OR]

One must be a little wary of the ambivalent position of Jesus's support for anti rich protests.
Jesus most definitely said that he did not intend to abolish poverty. It was one of his most definite statements.

[Nadine]

I don't recall reading that statement by Jesus anywhere in the Bible, though I accept that differing conclusions can be drawn from some things that actually are written there.

[hatless]

Didn't he say 'There are always going to be a lot of poor people, and I'm really pleased about that?'

No, perhaps he didn't.

'I have come not to abolish poverty, but to praise it!'

No.

'It's as easy for a rich man to enter heaven as it is to thread a piece of cotton through the eye of a needle.'

Na.

[Nadine]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8860073/Dean-of-St-Pauls-resigns-over-Occupy-London-protest.html

[Bonzo]

I think he probably should go.  But, reading between the lines, I get the impression that the real culprit for the fiasco has been the Bishop of London.  Any chance of him giving up his position or privilege?

[OR]

Jesus is quite clear that you will always have the poor with you in Matthew.

Luke 7:22-23
22 And he answered them, "Go and tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have good news preached to them.
'I wonder what that might be?' said the poor. 'Why don't you preach the good news to the deaf and give us some cash?'
Luke 6:20
And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God."

 'Thanks very much said the poor. Same old story. Jam Tomorrow. '

Jesus's attitude towards the poor was very much the attitude of the Jews, Muslims and the Church. Invite them to your feasts, do the charity bit, but don't have any serious intention of doing anything about them. Just rub on the ointment.

[Bonzo]

Jesus's attitude towards the poor was very much the attitude of the Jews, Muslims and the Church. Invite them to your feasts, do the charity bit, but don't have any serious intention of doing anything about them. Just rub on the ointment.

Jesus didn't just identify with poor people, he was one.  He and his disciples gave up what they had, and relied on the charity of others for their food and shelter.  When people gave them money they re-distributed it to to poor.  He taught others to do the same. To the rich young ruler,  he reportedly said - "give your money to the poor, and come and follow me". About the widow giving a tiny coin, her entire income at the temple, he said "She has given more than anyone". 

Jesus noticed the poor.  His proposal to help them was to change the system by challenging and changing people, and living out that lifestyle himself. 

Culturally, he lived in different time from us.  He didn't encourage people to withhold taxes from the rulers.  He didn't organise civil disobedience, but perhaps that's because it would simply have got people killed.  But in our day and age, where the principle, in theory at least, is that the people are in charge through democracy,  where protest and awareness-raising is a legitimate part of the democratic process, my belief is that Jesus would be encouraging people to challenge the system to get more justice for the poor.

[OR]

I mostly agree with you, Bonzo, but I don't think that becoming an itinerant preacher with a band of followers is exactly the same as being poor. Don't forget Jesus was a man with a solid middle class background. He wasn't exactly scrupulous in his attitude to charity, as Judas is shown to be. One wonders how far Judas's unfortunate suggestion about charity led to his being bumped off by surviving disciples jockeying for power in the early Church after the Crucifixion.

One sees the same sort of thing in many religions. Tibetan monks band together to spend a couple of years out living on charity, much to the annoyance of the real poor in some countries. It could be said that if you spend your life preaching alms giving then there are always going to be some canny souls who don't see why they shouldn't include themselves in the queue. In fact one could make a case that the Victorian Churches were the biggest short-circuiters of the donation and charity system to provide themselves with their creature comforts at the expense of the poor. 

Nothing changes. Our own children don the clothes of the ethnic poor and travel the world pretending to be poor and living off charity from their rellys.

Jesus's real nod towards a solution to poverty was the parable of the vineyard. However the rest of his sayings really are just references to the Jewish system of Charity, nothing revolutionary.

 

[The Toad]

Jesus's attitude to things in general seems to have been coloured by a belief that the old order of things was about to end and a new order begin - a new order in which God would rule over the world directly.  In this new order, God presumably would see to it that the poor would be poor no longer; so it's hardly surprising that Jesus had little to say about what should be done for them.  It is because of this belief of his that I can't go along with Bonzo when he says that Jesus tried to 'change the system' - if Jesus thought that the system was shortly going to be replaced, divinely, what would have been the point in trying to change it himself?  (I take it as given, by the way, that we can rarely be certain that the words attributed to Jesus were actually spoken by him; and that we can never be sure that they come down to us in their original context).  He was wrong in his belief about the imminent rule of God, of course.  But nobody's perfect.