Session 9 - What About The Church?

[Forum Admin]

Would Jesus get to be Pope if he came back today?  Or Archbishop of Canterbury?  If not, why not?  Is the Church a necessity for Christians?

[Bonzo]

I think part of the idea of a course like OMEGA is to make them realise that they are not alone, and that those who struggle with the questions alongside them can become a band of friends and fellow travellers who support and refresh one another. 

If Jesus was around today the church hierarchy would, most likely, reject him. His way ran counter to that sort of control.  But within the church and outside of it there will always be those whose minds are not closed to radical Love. 

Ask any statistician about liberal Christianity, and they'll tell you that it's on the decrease, and I guess there's plenty of evidence for that, but what are they counting? Church attendance?  There are very few churches which cater for the sort of beliefs and doubts we've been talking about in OMEGA. Might we not expect to find many who are just getting on with their daily lives having given up on Christianity, and church of any sort, as a bad job, but who still retain a faith of sorts, in a personal way. 

Perhaps the reason that liberal/progressive/call-us-what-you-will Christians seem to be on the decrease, is because the organisations and support structures have yet to evolve.  OMEGA is trying to be a starting point for this, a chance for people to discover new ideas for their faith and new ways of being church together. 

[brigid]

Ask any statistician about liberal Christianity, and they'll tell you that it's on the decrease, and I guess there's plenty of evidence for that

Um, no. Have you come across this book? Have a look at the synopsis. I picked it up recently, am hoping to find time to read it soon.

[Bonzo]

I stand corrected, and this time I'm glad to be proved wrong.

Well even so, the main thrust of what I'm saying above still stands.  If you feel you're losing your faith, or if you've looked at mainstream Christianity and found that it's not for you, it can be a very lonely experience.  It's when you realise that you're not alone that you find new life and hope.

[straight_talker]

The answer is obvious to me that Jesus would never be pope or archbishop because Jesus wouldn't be good enough!!

Too loving...too thoughtful...too communicative...too scary...too arrogant...too outspoken in the wrong way...should I go on!!!

[Boopy]

I like the sound of that book! Might pick up a copy myself.

The trouble is that while liberal churches may be growing, it's very isolating if you don't happen to be in one......I wonder where they all are! OMEGA could be a real support to those who find themselves alone in a non-liberal church.

[Pilgrim]

Jesus can't be Pope: I've already got my wife lined up for the post (after she does a brief stint at Canterbury, of course).

[brigid]

Aaaw! But I wanted that job!!!!

[straight_talker]

No smoke without fire!!!

even if the smoke is purple or pink!!!

[Pilgrim]

Aaaw! But I wanted that job!!!!

You can be Pope whilst Revd Mrs Pilgrim does her stint at Canterbury, OK? You can warm things up for her...

[brigid]

Don't worry, I won't fancy it when I'm sober! You'll never catch me in a frock. 

[straight_talker]

You would have the power to change your frock!!

And...if you said it was
 a new rule to dress in a
certain way that would enhance
your prayer life
 then you would be infallible
and get all nuns to wear
leggings and baggy jumpers
and flash scarfs!!!

[Bonzo]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to discuss what the church is actually for.   I mean, some people see it as an institution or authority to define what is right or wrong, who is in or out, what the rules are about belief, that sort of thing.  But I guess that most people here see the church as something of an organic community with few hard and fast rules other than a belief that Love is the best way.   So what's the difference between a church and a social club? What extra things is the church about that a group of good friends meeting in a pub is not about?

I suppose my own answer to that would be that a good church has a direction, the people who meet in a church are fellow travellers comparing notes, people with a will for the world,  people who will strive for change for good regardless of whether there is anything for them.  It's the common purpose of Love that makes a church different from some other sort of club.

Does a church need God? Couldn't a group of like-minded, loving, caring people get together and plan how they're going to make the world a better place without talking about God? Does the God talk help and, if it does, then why does it help? Can we be a church and just talk about God as a concept, something fictional but useful to coalesce our thoughts around, or do we actually need to believe in the possibility of some real entity called 'God'?

[Pilgrim]

I for one do believe in the reality of God ? but I couldn't offer anyone a definition of that reality. Something/one that transcends existence itself, who emerges in (but not necessarily out of) our fellowship, who gives the group its sense of purpose, who makes love make sense... as someone or other said, (k)no(w) God, (k)no(w) life... so it seems to me... and again, for me, it comes back around to Jesus, that enigmatic, annoying bloke who simply wouldn't be pinned down until they resorted to using nails on him... and even then they couldn't keep him down...

[brigid]

I feel the g-d-talk helps. I believe it is engaging with something real, even though our language and concepts tend perhaps to construct it more than describe it. It is a way of talking about reality and about humanness, about community and about transcendence. When we think about what we want to say about g-d, we are usually working through some aspect of our own living and relationships, making meaning, setting up some kind of conversation between our inner and outer worlds. And the way we talk about g-d, the stories we tell about g-d, have outcomes in our real lives. The words we use 'do' something, make things possible or impossible, open things up, close things down, comfort us, disturb us, reassure us, strengthen us, shame us, diminish us, enlarge us.

I was reading an article yesterday by Patrick T Gray about Faith Based Community Organising (FBCO) as a model for church. I'm still mulling it. He writes about power as being the ability to act, and the church has this power. It has a choice whether to attempt to exercise power 'over' (dominating, unilateral power) or power 'with', which is relational and based on compromise. He suggests that FBCO works more from the power 'with' perspective, believing that 'lasting solutions start (and end) with relationships'.

But he asks what kind of relationships? He suggests the kind of relationships that build power (the power 'with' kind of power) are those in which we ask not just how but who people are, in which we start to get a sense of what is important to people, what is in their 'self-interest', what they care about and what they are doing about the things that matter to them. And this is where the role of the community organiser (the church in this case) comes in. He writes:

'An organiser's primary task is to initiate and develop intentional public relationships that are based on respect, trust and mutual understanding, such that, after a conversation, the two dialogue partners have a sense of what the other cares about. And the organiser is to have numerous conversations like this, listening for what comes up again and again ... because perhaps it is worth giving it attention; perhaps it is worth the effort to organise these people around the thing they care about. And the job of the organiser is to help them turn what is most likely in their mind an unactionable problem into an actionable issue that they are able to do something about.'

Faith based community organisations are made up of institutions that care about the world and are acting in it. Faith is a powerful motivator, fostering and 'storying' this care for the world, and a vision of what the world should/could be (shalom, kingdom of God), recognising the need to work together on multiple issues in order to act in a powerful way around the problems that are important to those we are in relationship with.

This is not all church is, but I liked the idea.

"Community Organising as Lived Faith" by Patrick T. Gray